Thinking...

[andy4499]

Here is a question about the vortec pumps... would they be cost effective in a 29 gal tank vs going with some tunze nanostreams? I've never seen one in action but gather they are great pumps and if i had a large tank and wanted flow would go with something like that, but for a smaller tank I don't know if it would be the best option for the price.

I love my vortech pumps on my tank, but then again I do have a very large setup. I have only seen the MP40's in action so I am not sure how the smaller ones are. I do think the nanostreams are a lot better on price then the vortech pumps, but I have never seen one of them or how much water they push. When I got my pumps I did look into Tunze pumps and they were cheaper, but another fellow reefer had 2 of the MP40's on a 65 gallon tank and it was really pushing some water. So after seeing them on his tank I went with the vortech pumps.

[Amphiprion]

It depends on a number of different factors and what you are looking for. A couple of modified (uncontrollable) or more expensive controllable nanostreams would still be cheaper than a Vortech and would provide the exact same amount of overall water motion in terms of volume. You'd also get added customization of the flow patterns by having more than one pump. However, on the other hand, the Vortech produces almost no heat, has a much wider stream (stock, at least), has all the controllability, and is low profile. You also only have one particular piece of a pump in the tank and no added electricity. But you do sacrifice a lot of the variability you'd get with the nanostreams. So, in my opinion, I'd get nanostreams more so for pure performance and a smaller budget, whereas I'd go Vortech for great performance, less customization in terms of flow direction, but also less bulk and electricity in the tank. It's a trade off and either one would be good. But no, for the money, you can technically get better performance. If I were to do another smaller tank of that size with high energy loving corals, I'd probably have a Vortech AND nanostreams, which is roughly the equivalent of what I have now. Either way, you can't go wrong.

[Scott]

Not to squash the debate but I lean more towards a closed loop. If I want variations in the flow I can do that and I can get as high flow or a large volume of flow as I desire without any electricity in the tank. The downside is drilling the tank, which if you have to have the tank drilled for overflows isn't a big deal but if the tank is already set up would be to much work to justify the benefits.

[Amphiprion]

True, but you get a lot more heat for the amount of water moved, not to mention energy usage (and Vortechs don't get any electricity in the tank, either). The flow these pumps push is very different in nature and is much higher in volume than what you can get from a closed loop, also. You'd have to put a dart on the tank to get a similar volume, but it will be so forceful and pressurized that it wouldn't really be usable. That's like on my little 40g. With a combination of pumps (I could have done it differently and lower profile if I had the money), I'm able to get over 10,000 gph @ ~60w, but keep even corals like Trachyphyllia plenty happy. Bulk flow will beat out pressurized flow in terms of coral preference any day of the week, which is also something to keep in mind. A closed loop is still a valid option, but there are just better ways to accomplish the same thing at this point, at least IMO.

[Scott]

The heat transmitted to the water is dependent on the pump that you use if the pump is water cooled, I think they were called Titaniums that were water cooled, then they add a significant amount of heat to the water. Most external pumps are air cooled which add little heat to the water. Powerheads like the Tunze streams will add heat to the water because they are water cooled. I can't say anything about the Vortex powerheads, they were just coming on the market when I was getting out of the hobby.

The Dart and AM3000 aren't pressure pumps and I adapt the 1.5" or 2" output to 2" or 2.5" and get a large amount of flow. The AM3000 draws 1.3 amps max, and I remember seeing studies that after initial startup the power consumption goes to less than one amp. Dart's draw less than 0.9 amps. Of course power usage is dependent on head pressure and flow rates but with a closed loop there is almost no head pressure and little flow loss. So less than 120 Watts which 2 Tunze would draw with slightly more flow and more equipment in the tank to contend with. Again I can't comment on the powerheads were the pump is internal and the motor is external. It seems like they are low profile and the heat would not enter the tank but unless there is some sort of shim system or way to divert the flow (which would reduce output) your would have to rely on flow that is perpendicular to the aquarium sides.

Those are the reasons that I preferred closed loop systems. I am not saying that I am against the other options just that i have not had the opportunity to check them out. I have seen Tunze streams in tanks and was not impressed at all. Salt'n'Lime had at least one and while it did have a decent amount of output it was gaudy and then you have to hide it or get a Tunze rock to camouflage it.

[Fishfood]

Yea I agree with andrew on this one. I was a big closed loop guy but these new tunze and vortech pumps beat out closed loops these days. If you are going with MH you will need to think about heat and those ph will put out a lot less heat.

[Scott]

Well just from an initial impression on the vortech powerheads, they seem good and they are certainly smaller than I thought they would be but i could use an AM (that I already have, calculated at approx $147/year) on a closed loops for a 3 years for what one with the controller cost not factoring in the cost to run which I calculated at approx $60/year. I already have a AM3000. Which would you choose.

[Fishfood]

I've gone away from complex stuff in my tanks and have gone more towards easy, simple stuff. I just can't see myself paying for a vortech pump, but if I had money I didn't really want I'd probably buy one. I'm not saying closed loops are complex. I just don't need all of that plumbing anymore, especially not on a smaller tank with limited space in the stand.

[Amphiprion]

Even the air-cooled pumps generate more heat than these powerheads and the flow from a dart is still far more pressurized and velocitized than any of the Tunze or Vortech pumps. Sure, Darts and Ampmasters aren't pressure rated (and are lower velocity than a pressure-rated pump), but if you compare the output of either @1.5" plumbing fully open vs. a Vortech or Tunze, you'll immediately notice the difference. If I were to put 10000 gph worth of closed loop pumps on my 40g, I wouldn't even be able to get sand in there like I have now unless I had extremely unwieldy diameter pvc. But I don't really mind the look of pumps in a tank at all, as long as it gets the job done. Again, much of it is personal preference, but I think you'll get a lot more good out of something other than a closed loop. Oh, and the new Tunze gen 2 pumps are much, much smaller than the originals and are fully positionable via a ball and socket style design. It's entirely up to you, but just food for thought.

Edit: I calculated the Ampmaster using close to 5x more electricity on average @ 170w (via MarineDepot) and the Vortech at 30w (being liberal and averaging in the variable flow rates as being on for equal times). That came out to roughly using 80% less electricity per year, since the Vortech won't be on full 100% of the time (even if it was on full all the time, that would be ~$35). For me, that came out to ~$25/month for the vortech vs. the full $147 for the Ampmaster. That actually came out to close to 3.5 years to equal the savings just in terms of energy by my calculations. But, don't forget to factor in the money that you would make by potentially selling the ampmaster, too, as well as saving on drilling, expensive valves, etc. One other extra is that you do get a way to control it and vary the flow on a Vortech. Throw the same thing into the mix for a closed loop and it's another $200 or more. In all, it's a tradeoff, but you're the judge in the end. If you feel a closed loop is the route you want to take, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing that.

All that said, I wouldn't pay the full price for a Tunze or Vortech, honestly. For that size tank, you can't beat a couple of Nanostreams @ close to 1500 gph each, and if you don't use the controllable version, it will be about $140 and only use ~12w.

[Scott]

That is the first I had heard of the Nanostreams. They appear to be pretty small and I like the magnet mount. When I decide on a tank I may sell the Ampmaster after all, i just kick myself for selling the Dart so i have been reluctant to sell anything else hoping that I will get back into it.

[Amphiprion]

Well, think it through and see what works out best. I love my nanostreams. I bought the cheapest ones (the 6025s, I believe and they are $70 each), which can be modded without voiding anything (seriously) and they can push about 1500 gph each. I actually sold Drew one of mine before (because I added my old modded 6100) and he can also attest to how strong the little things are. Also, the magnet mounts are the best ones you can get that actually come with the pump. The controllable ones are pricey, though, at $230 each--but you get the same amount of flow, minus controllability, with the modded ones.

[Scott]

I will add Nanostreams to the list. Man, my list is getting long and I have just started. Time to take inventory.

[snoopdog]

Yeah but you are made of money.

[Scott]

Yeah, but it's all Canadian so I am still broke.

[opiy]

I couldn't help but think how expensive this hobby is while I added up the list I was working on. I still have to add alot more Hopefully you will score some good deals.