sailfish tang and ich

jdmorgan20fan · Post by **jdmorgan20fan** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:34 pm

So I got a beautiful small sailfin tang today and as I was acclimating him I noticed ich so I set up a medication tank. I have never had to deal with ich and its freaking me out. I wanted to have him in my reef tank but I don't wnat to take the chance. Now I have to keep him here for a while. I have been reading up on it but would like to hear some advice about the ich, the medication tank and the time it takes. the bottle says 1 drop per gallon each day. Any Advice?

Neuticle · Post by **Neuticle** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:48 pm

Buy him some good Nori and make sure he's eating well. My fish won't take to the green nori very quickly but will devour purple, red or brown.

Amphiprion · Post by **Amphiprion** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:53 pm

Hyposalinity treatment is a better option than many of the medications out there. You'll want to drop your specific gravity to 1.009. You can do this all at once, but I suggest dropping it over the course of a few days. You'll want to treat the fish for a minimum of 6 weeks, since that is the typical life cycle length of marine ich. At salinities this low, the pH will have a tendency to shift, since the carbonate/bicarbonate solubility will be lower. This means you'll have to keep a close eye on the pH and alkalinity while you do this. Using some baked baking soda (spread on a thin sheet and bake @ 350 F for an hour) can raise the pH a good bit and raise the alkalinity a little as well. Sort of a DIY buffer. Just be careful not to overshoot. Beyond that, just keep an eye out for ammonia and do substantial regular water changes (cheaper, since you'll be using less than half the amount of salt). The last thing is to be sure that you have something accurate to measure the specific gravity with, like a calibrated refractometer or nicer floating hydrometer.

jdmorgan20fan · Post by **jdmorgan20fan** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:31 pm

That helps me alot. Its crazy how much I learn everyday at reefkeeping. I am going to try the baking soda diy and thanks for the help.

Amphiprion · Post by **Amphiprion** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:34 pm

No problem. just as an FYI, normal baking soda, while it raises the alkalinity, will actually very slightly drop the overall pH (by say .03). Only if you bake it (making it sodium carbonate instead of sodium bicarbonate) will it raise the pH. Again, just make sure the pH nor alkalinity goes too high.

Michelle · Post by **Michelle** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 10:05 am

Oyy you don't have to "medicate" or treat a fish with a little bit of ich. And freshwater baths make them stress more.

Repeat after me... "All fish have ich naturally, their IMMUNE system suppresses it".

Make sure parameters are good in your tank, that no one is picking on him, and that he's eating well and it'll go away on its own. I've done it a million times.

Neuticle · Post by **Neuticle** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 10:39 am

Michelle wrote:Repeat after me... "All fish have ich naturally, their IMMUNE system suppresses it".

There is no firm evidence of that. Many people would disagree.

Michelle · Post by **Michelle** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:06 pm

As many people can disagree as they like, that's the nature of the hobby. All I'm saying is that in my experience making the environment less stressful fixes the fish. When do tangs get ich? Let's see, when they're not acclimated properly, not handled properly, your pH, salinity, nitrates/nitrites/etc are out of balance, or they're being picked on. All causes of stress on the fish.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just do things a whole lot more naturally than a whole lot of people in the hobby. Over 5 years running a store which anyone who shops with me will testify to the quality of my fish, I've adopted this natural approach not only for better husbandry of the fish, but because it works. I don't use copper or freshwater baths, haven't in years. Give me good water quality and a cleaner shrimp and I'm set.

There's also no "firm" evidence that Tech CB part A and B raises your pH but people will have you believe it does. It's a temp chemical reaction, not a permanent increase. There's so much misinformation in this hobby in regards to medications and additives... and so little anymore of people realizing the tanks we put together are an ecosystem, and we need to keep that in balance to make it all good.

Amphiprion · Post by **Amphiprion** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:14 pm

Michelle wrote:Oyy you don't have to "medicate" or treat a fish with a little bit of ich. And freshwater baths make them stress more.

Repeat after me... "All fish have ich naturally, their IMMUNE system suppresses it".

Make sure parameters are good in your tank, that no one is picking on him, and that he's eating well and it'll go away on its own. I've done it a million times.

I've tried it myself many a time. The bottom line is that it is far from 100% effective. You also risk a potential full tank outbreak. Fish do not have to be stressed to become infected with ich. Also keep in mind that very low level infections will barely (if at all) manifest spots. The spots are just cysted skin and scales, not the microscopic parasite.

Michelle wrote:As many people can disagree as they like, that's the nature of the hobby. All I'm saying is that in my experience making the environment less stressful fixes the fish. When do tangs get ich? Let's see, when they're not acclimated properly, not handled properly, your pH, salinity, nitrates/nitrites/etc are out of balance, or they're being picked on. All causes of stress on the fish.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just do things a whole lot more naturally than a whole lot of people in the hobby. Over 5 years running a store which anyone who shops with me will testify to the quality of my fish, I've adopted this natural approach not only for better husbandry of the fish, but because it works. I don't use copper or freshwater baths, haven't in years. Give me good water quality and a cleaner shrimp and I'm set.

There's also no "firm" evidence that Tech CB part A and B raises your pH but people will have you believe it does. It's a temp chemical reaction, not a permanent increase. There's so much misinformation in this hobby in regards to medications and additives... and so little anymore of people realizing the tanks we put together are an ecosystem, and we need to keep that in balance to make it all good.

I don't want to be disagreeable either. You can prove that Tech CB does indeed raise your pH with a container of water and a pH probe. It is temporary because the carbonate/bicarbonate ratio will fall back to equilibrium. It raises pH for the same reason that any other base does. It just isn't as basic as, say, the hydroxide anions in kalkwasser. It is empirically verifiable.

I also agree that there is much misinformation and I do my best to dispel it. However, marine ich and treatment measures are very, very well documented scientifically speaking. Hyposalinity is a proven effective treatment that is also very safe (freshwater baths, by comparison, are not effective at all). That being said, again, the fish does not have to be stressed to get ich. Stress certainly increases the likelihood for disease, as it does for any organism, but it isn't caused by it. That in itself is a myth, as well as cleaner shrimp eating ich and also the fact that all fish have ich. It simply isn't the case. You'll practically never see it in the wild (fish get plenty stressed in the wild, too). It is more of an artifact of holding facilities and a concentration of the parasite than it is in actual ubiquity. Tanks with proper quarantine procedure can, in fact, eradicate ich altogether. Whether or not that is going to be done is dependent upon the person. Most people (myself included) are too lazy to do it unless a fish is obviously ailing. Does that necessarily make it the "best" (or maybe safest would be better?) approach? Certainly not. The best approach in terms of outright preventing the disease is to stop it from even making it into the tank. UV sterilizers do not prevent it, ozone does not prevent it, etc. In all, not quarantining would be like playing a game of Russian roulette with lesser odds of getting the bullet. That is why I won't recommend otherwise to everyone else, despite the fact that I do it--just because what I do isn't necessarily the best thing to do.

jdmorgan20fan · Post by **jdmorgan20fan** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:39 pm

When i got it home, it had ich and it was still in the bag. At the store, it had no signs of it.

Neuticle · Post by **Neuticle** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 10:33 pm

Sounds like bad lights at the store, I've bought fish that were on the verge of starving to death but looked fine in the store.

Another reason we are very critical of the LFS, and super loyal to the good ones.

Amphiprion · Post by **Amphiprion** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:42 pm

Hmm, possibly. Maybe it is from working in LFS for years, but I've always been able to spot it incredibly easily in the tanks under a variety of lighting situations. I think it has more to do with being used to looking at things under a given lighting than anything. Nobody else has to stare at it for 6+ hours, lol.

Fishfood · Post by **Fishfood** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:13 am

Well as andrew pointed out it is not always visible on the fish. The fish could have very well not been stressed in the store but still been carrying Ich becuase ich was in the system. Bagging the fish up and moving him to a new tank would surely be stressful.

I have also read a few articles that state the same thing Andrew suggested about very few fish in the wild being infected by ich(being carriers). Its the moving them to holding facilities and shipping them around the world bulk that allows the fish to come into contact with Ich and become infected.

Michelle · Post by **Michelle** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:22 am

Err I hate to be the voice of reason here but if ich was not often present in the wild there would be no reason for creatures such as cleaner shrimps, wrasse, etc to be present in those systems. Ich does in fact occur in the wild. I'd be interested to see what research states that it is not a common thing. Again though, not trying to start a war here... just going with common sense & what I know.

Neuticle · Post by **Neuticle** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:40 am

Many fish collected for marine aquariums will not be carrying "Ich". Incidence of C. irritans in wild fish varies widely and may be geographically related. Some authors have found few infected fish, if any, in the areas they have examined (Puerto Rico: Bunkley-Williams and Williams, 1994; southern California: Wilkie and Gordin, 1969) . Others have found that low levels of infection are not uncommon (e.g. southern Queensland; Diggles and Lester, 1996c). Keeping multiple fish in holding tanks and at aquarium stores increases the chances of a fish carrying "Ich" parasites, but it is still possible to acquire a fish that is not infected with "Ich".

The presence of aging cell lines in C. irritans suggests that an aquarium that has been running for longer than 12 months without any additions is unlikely to have any surviving "Ich" parasites, yet another exception to "Ich" always being present.

Whilst "Ich" may be present in some aquaria, it is certainly not present in all aquaria. Through careful quarantining and treatment, it is very much possible to establish and maintain an "Ich" free aquarium.

Quoted from http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/marineich.html
Academic references listed on the bottom of the page linked.