Hey there,
As some of you may know, I am fairly new to the hobby.
I am about to fix a mistake in my return plumbing to subtract @6-8 feet of head pressure to increase the flow into the tank from the sump.
But there seems to be a problem. currently my mag24 has @13-14feet of head, and is opperating way under what its capable of. But on the flip side, my overflow seems to be barely keeping up with the demand (2 1" drains into sump.)
Is there anyone around that would be willing to help me in my situation? I really want to increase the flow, just would like some experienced help along the way.
skimmers and return pumps - officially hijacked
Moderator: snoopdog
skimmers and return pumps - officially hijacked
Last edited by mykpoz on Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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snoopdog
- Yellow Tang
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Well since Rich Gallop at Progressive has been doing this so long you may want to consult him. He has setup more tanks than anyone here, so he can probably figure out the return GPH. I honestly would think two one inch would be too small. Also if the return pipes are submurged under water in the sump it should pull more. When my sump gets low and the return is above the water line my tank makes horrible gurgling noises and does not flow as well.
"When they was no meat we ate fowl, when there was no fowl we ate crawdad. And when there was no crawdad to be found, we ate sand."--Cellmate
"You ate what?"--H.I.
"We ate sand."--Cellmate
"You ate sand?"--H.I.
"That's right."--Cellmate
"You ate what?"--H.I.
"We ate sand."--Cellmate
"You ate sand?"--H.I.
"That's right."--Cellmate
Two 1" returns are way too small for a Mag 24. In my 100 I have three one inch returns connected immediately to 1-1/2" piping straight to the sump. The one inch overflow bulkheads have standard screens that I have cut every other circle off. I have a 2 1-1/4" return lines from a mag 24 to two 1" return bulkheads. I have to throttle the mag 24 to about 20% closed on the ball valve which is probably restricting flow capacity by 40+%. I believe that with this system my measured flow was about 800 gpm on the Mag 24 which is an awful waste of power. If you have any growth or blockage of the screens, it severely restricts flow further.
Please note that none of this really matters one bit as I further throttle my ball valve even futher down to reduce flow to approximately 300 gph. This is approximately 50 gph greater than the capacity of the Sedra 5000 on the G-4. I produce at least 4x as much particulate skimmate as I did when I was running the flow through the sump at closer to the capacity stated above.
I am firmly convinced that you are doing a diservice to your tank by running more flow through the sump than your skimmer can handle. You should not use the sump return for tank circulation. If you do, you are essentially taking all the nice protein laden water that works it way to the top of the water column and mixing it real well back into the tank without removing a significant portion of the waste.
Phil
Please note that none of this really matters one bit as I further throttle my ball valve even futher down to reduce flow to approximately 300 gph. This is approximately 50 gph greater than the capacity of the Sedra 5000 on the G-4. I produce at least 4x as much particulate skimmate as I did when I was running the flow through the sump at closer to the capacity stated above.
I am firmly convinced that you are doing a diservice to your tank by running more flow through the sump than your skimmer can handle. You should not use the sump return for tank circulation. If you do, you are essentially taking all the nice protein laden water that works it way to the top of the water column and mixing it real well back into the tank without removing a significant portion of the waste.
Phil
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snoopdog
- Yellow Tang
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Going also on what Redfish says it seems that much flow through a sump probably has some negative effects. Back to the return size thing I would think that one 1.5" return has better capability that two 1" returns. So you may want to bump both of them up if plan to go with your current course.
"When they was no meat we ate fowl, when there was no fowl we ate crawdad. And when there was no crawdad to be found, we ate sand."--Cellmate
"You ate what?"--H.I.
"We ate sand."--Cellmate
"You ate sand?"--H.I.
"That's right."--Cellmate
"You ate what?"--H.I.
"We ate sand."--Cellmate
"You ate sand?"--H.I.
"That's right."--Cellmate
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Scott
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I have two 1" drains and I have to divert a lot of flow back to my sump. I am using a Mag 12 and I just T-ed off at the pump and put a valve in there below the water line so it dumps right back in the sump.
I also believe low flow sumps are better. Beaver and I were talking about it the other day and he said he could barely feel his return flow.
I also believe low flow sumps are better. Beaver and I were talking about it the other day and he said he could barely feel his return flow.
Wanted: to set up a tank again.
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snoopdog
- Yellow Tang
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I concur.Scott wrote: I also believe low flow sumps are better.
"When they was no meat we ate fowl, when there was no fowl we ate crawdad. And when there was no crawdad to be found, we ate sand."--Cellmate
"You ate what?"--H.I.
"We ate sand."--Cellmate
"You ate sand?"--H.I.
"That's right."--Cellmate
"You ate what?"--H.I.
"We ate sand."--Cellmate
"You ate sand?"--H.I.
"That's right."--Cellmate
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110chadman
- Copepod
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ive gone the route a smaller return and a larger closed loop ive got 2 1 inch drains and 1/2 inch return it was working great back when i had it set up and now i have a bit larger return and a very large closed loop 2mdx return and 4mdx both lg pumps and a 3mdx for the skimmer i dont see that if you have a monster return pump and have to throttle it down then why spend all that money for that monster return pump whan you could have bought a smaller pump and have it flow free as you can
thats the way i see it
chad
thats the way i see it
chad
gitting things back in order and starting over!!!
well i have a panworld blueline 55HD which is a fairly powerful pump. I know that if it was the only thing running and it was open all the way up i'd flood my house and have nothing in the sump. Now i have it split to run my Calcium Reactor and use to have it connect to my chiller as well. I recently took the chiller off. Now i have it diverted back into the sump so i don't have to cut it back. The thing is, I have Penductors on the return and those require a bit of flow. You can see the difference and I did have to addjust the T where water goes back into the sump when i put the Penductors back on. I could probably cut it back to a smaller pump and it would still create enough flow.
I also have a closed loop with a reeflo dart. That is a powerfull pump.
I also have a closed loop with a reeflo dart. That is a powerfull pump.
Well to back Scott up..... My thoughts are to have the main circulation of the tank thru my closed loop. Dolphin 2700 with www.oceansmotions.com "super squirt". The feed size is 2" and there are four returns, each at 1". My sump is a 30 long with a Danner Mag-Drive 9.5 plumbed thru 1.5" pvc. This feeds the main tank and is drained thru 2 1.5" bulkheads.
Redfish sums up my thoughts "I am firmly convinced that you are doing a diservice to your tank by running more flow through the sump than your skimmer can handle. You should not use the sump return for tank circulation. If you do, you are essentially taking all the nice protein laden water that works it way to the top of the water column and mixing it real well back into the tank without removing a significant portion of the waste. "
My only addition to this statement is that I believe that a high powered and """"CLEAN""""" skimmer should be delived about 3/4 its pump rating. So with this said I run a beckett equiped E.T.S.S. skimmer fed by a Danner Mag-Drive 12 plumbed thru 1.5"pvc. My return pumps at 900 gph and my skimmer pump is 1200 gph I know there is about 5' of head on the return and stepping down to the 1" beckett inlet has got to be close to that for my skimmer pump.
The main tank is only a 75 gallon tank. To make this right I should say I run against the grain of most club members. The tank and sump are both bare bottom and with this being said should only be attempted if you have time to do weekly waterchanges. The water changes are quite small and are used to remove debris from the bottom. Most of the time I just siphon back into the filter sock. The sock is changed 2-3 times a week. The live rock I used was "cooked" for 2.5 months before I set this up. The key to this setup is enough flow to get all but the largest debris to the overflows and down to the filter sock and skimmer for export.
For what its worth.....
This tank will house 90% sps. The remaining 10% will consist on things that catch my eye. Also maybe a clam or three so I have a reason to run my reactor.
This next statement is based on other successful sps dominanted tanks.
I believe the constant use of carbon, ferric oxide, and auto top off are key for water stability. The use of some sort of wave maker or timer is used to remove dead spots and help with polyp stimulation.
Hope this helps
Beaver
Yes I know 7 holes drilled in a 75 gallon tank is out there. And as most of you that know me know that I am out there just as far....
Roll Tide
Redfish sums up my thoughts "I am firmly convinced that you are doing a diservice to your tank by running more flow through the sump than your skimmer can handle. You should not use the sump return for tank circulation. If you do, you are essentially taking all the nice protein laden water that works it way to the top of the water column and mixing it real well back into the tank without removing a significant portion of the waste. "
My only addition to this statement is that I believe that a high powered and """"CLEAN""""" skimmer should be delived about 3/4 its pump rating. So with this said I run a beckett equiped E.T.S.S. skimmer fed by a Danner Mag-Drive 12 plumbed thru 1.5"pvc. My return pumps at 900 gph and my skimmer pump is 1200 gph I know there is about 5' of head on the return and stepping down to the 1" beckett inlet has got to be close to that for my skimmer pump.
The main tank is only a 75 gallon tank. To make this right I should say I run against the grain of most club members. The tank and sump are both bare bottom and with this being said should only be attempted if you have time to do weekly waterchanges. The water changes are quite small and are used to remove debris from the bottom. Most of the time I just siphon back into the filter sock. The sock is changed 2-3 times a week. The live rock I used was "cooked" for 2.5 months before I set this up. The key to this setup is enough flow to get all but the largest debris to the overflows and down to the filter sock and skimmer for export.
For what its worth.....
This tank will house 90% sps. The remaining 10% will consist on things that catch my eye. Also maybe a clam or three so I have a reason to run my reactor.
This next statement is based on other successful sps dominanted tanks.
I believe the constant use of carbon, ferric oxide, and auto top off are key for water stability. The use of some sort of wave maker or timer is used to remove dead spots and help with polyp stimulation.
Hope this helps
Beaver
Yes I know 7 holes drilled in a 75 gallon tank is out there. And as most of you that know me know that I am out there just as far....
Roll Tide
I hate to be the only 1 to disagree and mean no harm by my following statement but I think more flow is better in the sump. I have 2 skimmers in the sump that use all of a 6,000 g/h pump (and 1 is way way underdriven) so I do not want to just dribble water from the main tank. I would like to get as much water to the sump as possible without causing bubbles to return to the main tank that way I know my skimmer is getting 80% dirty water. I tried the slower sump but the skimmer production is much lower. I honestly feel that the more dirty water you can put into the sump, the more cleaner water in the display. I do not mean to undermine any of the other comments because I have taken many many tips from them with success.
I would have to say that I would base my sump on the size skimmer I am planning on using. If the skimmer pump is a mag-7, it is rediculous to run 2500 g/h throuth the sump..but if the skimmer (or skimmers) require a 4-5000 g/h pump, I think it is rediculous to run 500 g/h through the sump.
These are my thoughts and I mean no offense to others with a difference of opinion.
Just to be on the up and up, my current tank only has 2k g/h going tom the sump. This will be corrected on the next tank.
I think contacting Rich would be the way to go also. He is as sharp as they come.
Thanks and Good Luck,
Jeremy
I would have to say that I would base my sump on the size skimmer I am planning on using. If the skimmer pump is a mag-7, it is rediculous to run 2500 g/h throuth the sump..but if the skimmer (or skimmers) require a 4-5000 g/h pump, I think it is rediculous to run 500 g/h through the sump.
These are my thoughts and I mean no offense to others with a difference of opinion.
Just to be on the up and up, my current tank only has 2k g/h going tom the sump. This will be corrected on the next tank.
I think contacting Rich would be the way to go also. He is as sharp as they come.
Thanks and Good Luck,
Jeremy
In actuallity Jeremy, I do not think you were disagreeing with the posts above. The summary of those posts is: There is no reason to run any more water through the sump than your skimmer can process.
I will add my caveat to that: In order to increase skimmer efficency through pass and dwell time, it is probably advantageous to run slightly less flow through the sump than your slimmer can handle unless the skimmer is gravity fed from the tank.
I would love to know what skimmers you are using. 6000 g/h is a ton of flow. How big is your system?
I am putting together a system that has about 250-275 gallons of water total. I have narrowed my skimmer choices to an MRC -4R beckett or a Deltec AP-702. Neither of those is close to needing 6000 g/h in feed or recirculation. I would have considered a Barr aquatics or Euroreef recirculating, but I just cannot stomach waiting 4-6 weeks or longer once I have spent my money. I have used ASM skimmers with great success, however, I believe in the recirculating skimmer principle and do not want to modify the ASM myself as it would still need to sit in the sump most likely.
Phil
I will add my caveat to that: In order to increase skimmer efficency through pass and dwell time, it is probably advantageous to run slightly less flow through the sump than your slimmer can handle unless the skimmer is gravity fed from the tank.
I would love to know what skimmers you are using. 6000 g/h is a ton of flow. How big is your system?
I am putting together a system that has about 250-275 gallons of water total. I have narrowed my skimmer choices to an MRC -4R beckett or a Deltec AP-702. Neither of those is close to needing 6000 g/h in feed or recirculation. I would have considered a Barr aquatics or Euroreef recirculating, but I just cannot stomach waiting 4-6 weeks or longer once I have spent my money. I have used ASM skimmers with great success, however, I believe in the recirculating skimmer principle and do not want to modify the ASM myself as it would still need to sit in the sump most likely.
Phil
I am running a MR2 with the dual beckett injectors with a 2" gate valve. I also am running a good size (very comparable in size to the MR2)downdraft skimmer. My pump is a sequence 5800. If I open all valves to both skimmers, I barely have enough flow for the skimmers to opperate at full potential. I do not like to close the gate valve but have to on the MR2 since I cant get the waterline to where I want it. With this configuration, I am forced to run the downdraft wide open and only use 1 beckett injector with the gate valve 1/3 closed. The lines come from the pump and go through 2 "T"s so maybe saying 6000 g/h was a bit over but I am sure I am pushing 5. I actually recently pulled out the MR2 about 3 weeks ago since I felt like it was only running at 50%. This also allowed me to bump up the return to the tank.
I think you will be surprised how much flow the MR skimmer can take. My own 2 cents, if the skimmer is in the sump, the MR skimmers air intakes easily easily get clogged with the salt particles. The downdraft has a much bigger air intake so it does not clog...but the bio balls get dirty. The downdraft also doesnt require as much pressure.
My system is about 250 total gallons.
Jeremy
I think you will be surprised how much flow the MR skimmer can take. My own 2 cents, if the skimmer is in the sump, the MR skimmers air intakes easily easily get clogged with the salt particles. The downdraft has a much bigger air intake so it does not clog...but the bio balls get dirty. The downdraft also doesnt require as much pressure.
My system is about 250 total gallons.
Jeremy