Josh Murrah's 240G project.

ShagMan · Post by **ShagMan** » Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:22 pm

Welp, Deanna and I talked, and we're dropping the SCUBA for now, we both agreed that we'd rather dump the money into an aquarium upgrade... mostly because an aquarium is always there for viewing/fun, whereas SCUBA would be more like "remember that trip we made 3 months ago?". Here's the plans...

Code: Select all

 -----------------------------------------------
|                             |       C
|                             __________________
|
|          D                     K
|
|_______________________      _______  ---------
| |                    |      |      ||
|P|        A           |      |  R   ||   C
| |                    |      ------------------
|-----------------------      ------------------
|
|            L                          L



L = living room
K = kicthen (we have a "shotgun" like kitchen, like Kevin's)
C = kitchen cabinets 
R = refridge
D = dining room.  Won't be a LOT of space, probably about 8x12
P = space for the plumbing, about 6"
A = either a 225G from Ocea (84x24x24)
    or a 240G from Oceanview (96x24x24)

We want to do a room-divided tank that's viewable on three sides. A 96" tank will leave a 30" width walk path, a 84" tank would leave 42" to walk through. We're leaning towards the wider tank (the 240G). The cabinet and canopy would be DIY and wouldn't be like a wall, would probably be more like a classical wood/stain type setup.

The thing that's gonna kill me is how the heck do I manage the circulation? I don't like powerheads... I'm thinking about doing two 1" bulkheads in the hidden end for drains to the sump, and having returns in several locations, including the far/viewed end, fed from 3/4 or 1" pipe that runs just above the water line on the sides, that will take care of it. I'm trying not to do a closed loop, because I don't want to drill the small side-end of the tank with more than two holes. I want to push the flow of the two 1" bulkheads to max, meaning about 2000 GPH. I don't know where this leave me pump-wise... but it'll be about 10' head or so when you add up the vertical and horizontal runs, so it'll have to be a larger external pump. The drain & return piping (and wiring) will be hidden between the wall and the tank with a small part of the cabinet that's built for it.

Lighting should be semi-easy, but will be expensive... I'm thinking 4 x 250w w/ no VHO's. What kind of bulbs are best? All 10k's? 12k's? I'm staying away from 400w's because of the heat generated... and because it's hard to hide fan exhausts in a setup like this that's viewable on 3 sides.

Sump, I'm not sure... thinking a 55G or 75G if it'll fit, plus another smaller tank for a refugium. Everything has to fit under the stand. My skimmer's already rated for 200G and is in-sump, so no problems there.

I'll need to add rock, but not a WHOLE lot, since it'll be viewable from both sides, and only about 18" wide max... the width overall is 24", take a few inches for each side away so the rock's not up against the glass on both sides, and there's not gonna be that thick of a pile of rock. Another PVC rack will be in use.

I'll need lots of sand. Dunno about that one yet.

The aquarium price, from what I've been told, is like 850-900 or so, unless Liz can find a cheaper price via wholesale. The rest will have to be bought over time, until the tank can be put into operation.

What's bought first? The tank? Build stand and THEN buy tank?

Comments?? Help!

UPDATE: WOOW, just got off the phone with Terry Moore in Pascagoula MS, he has a setup identical to what I want to do... amazing. I'm gonna chat him up more and probably go over and document/examine his setup. Sounds sweet!

http://myweb.cableone.net/tbmoore/stand.JPG

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Aug 07, 2003 5:58 pm

Here is what I would do:
1. Have an overflow that is the entire length of the short end that is against the wall.
2. Have two holes drilled in the bottom for the overflow to the sump.
3. Build the stand so that the overflow side is covered with the stand and the canopy will make it look like one piece.
4. Drill the overflow for the closed loop and run the lines over the tank and into the stand where the CL pump will be, these will be hidden by the stand.
5. Buy a bigger skimmer.

A skimmers rating is not a good measure of the actual tank size that it may keep clean enough for a reef tank. Xster and Nepthea both have skimmers that are rated near 400 gallons for sale. Check with them. I know both are selling them for good prices.

Consider what kinds of corals you will ultimately keep before you commit to pumps and lights. In a 240 with softies and LPS 10-15 times turnovers per hour may be good but running 2400-3600 gph through a sump may not be the best idea. An Ampmaster 3000 each for the CL and return will save you money in the long run, but are fairly expensive.

I have seen Ushio's 10kk and Blueline 10kk bulbs 250 or 400 watt MH bulbs. If you are only going to use the N.O. for actinic supplimentation I would go with the Bluelines. They are not as bright but seem bluer.

Are you going to keep your 100 up and running? It could be a nice sump/refugium. Just a little acrylic and sealant and there you go.

Live rock and sand will be expensive too. If you buy base rock and cycle with it you can save a fortune. It may be worth it to see about a pallet of Southdown and sell the rest.

Post by **snoopdog** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 10:10 am

Scott's idea on the overflow is exactly what i was thinking you should do for your tank. Be sure on what you want to keep for corals and how heavy of a fish load you want or if you want any at all. Also look at the area where it would go and make sure that X number of inches is not going to be too small of a walking path to go around. You may want to go with a smaller or shorter tank so you do not block that path. If you pick up alot of stuff second hand you can do this endeaver very cheap compared to buying new. Scott always finds the good deals, keep in touch with him. Also start a thread showing your entire project from start to finish. Its nice to be able to look back on it, and i promise it will not get deleted.

ShagMan · Post by **ShagMan** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 12:44 pm

Scott wrote:Here is what I would do:
1. Have an overflow that is the entire length of the short end that is against the wall.
2. Have two holes drilled in the bottom for the overflow to the sump.

snoopdog wrote:Scott's idea on the overflow is exactly what i was thinking you should do for your tank.

OK, seems there's an agreement from you two guys that an overflow is desired. Can you guys tell me why I would want to sacrifice tank space for an overflow, versus having two holes drilled at the top with strainers, like Liz, or you, Kevin use? Overflows are fine, I have no problem with them, but wouldn't having it drilled for bulkhead drains be cheaper/easier and save space?

Scott wrote:5. Buy a bigger skimmer.

Nooooooooo, I just bought this one!!! I'm gonna fight that one until I have to as a last resort. Skimmers are expensive!!

Scott wrote:Consider what kinds of corals you will ultimately keep before you commit to pumps and lights.

snoopdog wrote:Be sure on what you want to keep for corals and how heavy of a fish load you want or if you want any at all.

I'm definitly keeping softie/LPS with a medium/high fish load. I don't need super intense lighting. Deanna and I go for the organic look of the softies, and we enjoy the fish/inverts as much as the corals.

Scott wrote:Running 2400-3600 gph through a sump may not be the best idea. An Ampmaster 3000 each for the CL and return will save you money in the long run, but are fairly expensive.

Why can't I run that GPH through a sump? I know there must be a reason, I don't see people doing that much flow through their sumps... but I don't see the reason. Does the heater not work as well or something?? I *really* want to avoid a CL or powerheads... but I may be forced to do one or another

Scott wrote:I have seen Ushio's 10kk and Blueline 10kk bulbs 250 or 400 watt MH bulbs. If you are only going to use the N.O. for actinic supplimentation I would go with the Bluelines. They are not as bright but seem bluer.

Sounds like a plan. I'll probably read the reviews and get some sort of 250W bulbs w/ cheapo ballasts from hellolights.

Scott wrote:Are you going to keep your 100 up and running? It could be a nice sump/refugium. Just a little acrylic and sealant and there you go.

The 100G would be too wide (20" or so) to fit underneath the stand for the new tank... there will be somewhere around 16-18" of width underneath, so I'm looking at maybe a 55G for a sump, with the 20G for a refugium. Thankfully, that'll mean I'll be able to sell the 100G as a complete setup (maybe minus the skimmer) w/ all the lighting/etc., so maybe get 500 or little more for that if I'm lucky. Maybe get more for it? Dunno.

Scott wrote:Live rock and sand will be expensive too. If you buy base rock and cycle with it you can save a fortune. It may be worth it to see about a pallet of Southdown and sell the rest.

You know, if Kevin would get off his bum and emerge from the wishing stage for his large aquarium, he and I could split a pallete! What about it Kevin? I dunno what I'll do about extra rock, probably add a little as I go, and the PVC rack will save the need for too much more.

snoopdog wrote:Also look at the area where it would go and make sure that X number of inches is not going to be too small of a walking path to go around. You may want to go with a smaller or shorter tank so you do not block that path.

I think we'll be OK... I'll measure again, but should be a 30" width path with a 96" tank + 6" for piping on the side against the wall. I think 30" is the size of a standard inside door.

snoopdog wrote:If you pick up alot of stuff second hand you can do this endeaver very cheap compared to buying new. Scott always finds the good deals, keep in touch with him.

Scott, hook me up! I have to buy this stuff over time, honestly. The tank is gonna have to sit for a few months while I buy lighting/etc.

snoopdog wrote:Also start a thread showing your entire project from start to finish. Its nice to be able to look back on it, and i promise it will not get deleted.

Well, what's this thread about then? heheheh.

Brandon · Post by **Brandon** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 1:24 pm

Note on overflows, you are removing more of the crap from the top..skimming that junk (protein buildup and other stuff) from the top of the water much better than you will with the little bulkhead fitting, also better oxygen exchange. Just my two cents.

On that note, I don't see why you couldn't fashion an overflow strip at the top with plexi that goes into your bulkhead fitting and would not lose all of the space below like with a traditional overflow.

Post by **snoopdog** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 8:51 am

OK, seems there's an agreement from you two guys that an overflow is desired. Can you guys tell me why I would want to sacrifice tank space for an overflow, versus having two holes drilled at the top with strainers, like Liz, or you, Kevin use? Overflows are fine, I have no problem with them, but wouldn't having it drilled for bulkhead drains be cheaper/easier and save space?

I see what Josh is saying and i much prefer the bulkhead / strainer combo but was thinking of a way for you to get your return back up to the tank. The return could be hidden in the overflow box coming from the bottom. I dont disagree at all Josh about the strainers. Personally i never want another overflow if if i can get away with it.

Why can't I run that GPH through a sump? I know there must be a reason, I don't see people doing that much flow through their sumps... but I don't see the reason. Does the heater not work as well or something?? I *really* want to avoid a CL or powerheads... but I may be forced to do one or another

The more flow through the sump the less chance of being able to use it for a possible refugium. You get that much flow through one and it will not work properly.

You know, if Kevin would get off his bum and emerge from the wishing stage for his large aquarium, he and I could split a pallete! What about it Kevin? I dunno what I'll do about extra rock, probably add a little as I go, and the PVC rack will save the need for too much more.

Hah its not a wishing stage, i am ready for sand but not the tank. I have a 22' shed out back that can hold plenty of sand. I will buy and store as much Southdown as i can. If you can find it and a way to get it back i will gladly go and pitch in whatever i need to. I would even store some bags for the club if need be. The tank is just on hold, dont have a house to put it in yet

I think we'll be OK... I'll measure again, but should be a 30" width path with a 96" tank + 6" for piping on the side against the wall. I think 30" is the size of a standard inside door.

Yeah interior doors are usually 30-32" and exterior 36", i am just saying this could be your most important thing to visualize having it there and actually tape it off on the floor. But there again alot of us could really care less about things like that, hell i sacrificed my laundry room for 2 years for my reef tank.

Well, what's this thread about then? heheheh

.

Yes, just keep us updated.

ShagMan · Post by **ShagMan** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 8:51 pm

My next step is now done; I visited Terry Moore's place and looked at my future setup to carbon-copy. Seriously. I loved everything about his tank TOTALLY. I'm mixed on what I'm gonna do for strainer/bulkhead or overflows... I liked Terry's overflows, although I still think they're obtrusive. Check in this forum area for a thread with BEAUTIFUL pics.

Post by **snoopdog** » Sun Aug 10, 2003 9:44 am

After a few years of having one, i hate overflows. The capture fish and if you screen the openings then algea seems to collect there. The space thing does not bother me as much as the fish jumping in. Small fish like clown Gobies jump in.

ShagMan · Post by **ShagMan** » Sun Aug 10, 2003 10:21 am

I have the same problem with my overflow, I have a grate over mine, and I have to clean the slats on mine with a pipe cleaner every week or the water level rises. I dunno though, Terry seems to have good luck with his... he actually took some snips and cut the teeth down so it'd lower the water level a bit and would skim more from the surface. I dunno, I'm still mixed on whether I'm doing overflows.

On another note, I started running a filter sock, and charcoal / phosphate sponges (this is what Terry does for his tank), and the haze in my tank has instantly disapeared over 24 hours.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Aug 10, 2003 11:12 am

Nooooooooo, I just bought this one!!! I'm gonna fight that one until I have to as a last resort. Skimmers are expensive!!

Your ASM G-2 is only rated for a 200 gallon tank. If Terry has a Predator model 3 or 4 (both use Mag 12) his skimmer is rated between 500 and 650 gallons. That is a lot of difference between yours and his. You know what kind of problems an inadequate skimmer can cause.

Post by **snoopdog** » Sun Aug 10, 2003 4:46 pm

I also have the Predator which is a massive skimmer and adding the extra lift tube makes it even bigger. But even there i personally would look into a bigger skimmer for a 220.

ShagMan · Post by **ShagMan** » Sun Aug 10, 2003 4:55 pm

The skimmer Terry was using had a chamber that was about 4-5" diameter, it was TINY. There's about 2-3x more volume in the skimmer I have. Maybe it's a smaller/lesser Predator model?

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Aug 10, 2003 7:59 pm

How tall was his skimmer? The smallest predator skimmer has a 7 inch diameter chamber. If it used a Mag 12 it had to be either of the ones that I mentioned above. Also, if you look at any long time successful reef keeper they all have the best filtration. You rarely see anyone skimping on something as important as a skimmer and most people agree that you should buy a skimmer that is rated about twice your tank size. Just my opinion and what I have seen.

One inch bulkheads will only handle about 1000 gallons per hour. You will need four (for safety reasons) if you want to run more than 2000 gph through your sump. If you have an overflow three would be ok. But the CL would be easier if you had the overflow without sacrificing any structural integrity of the tank glass.

ShagMan · Post by **ShagMan** » Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:20 pm

Welp, according to the specs on the post about his tank, it *was* a Mag 1200 (Mag 12, right?)... maybe I was mistaken about the size, but Deanna and I both agree it looked very tiny as compared to ours.

On bulkheads/overflows, how about I do two 1" drains through the bottom, in each of the end/center overflows like Terry's, and do the returns externally wherever I please? I don't want to go hole crazy, for reasons you already mentioned, especially since I can only drill through ONE of the short sides (the other being right in the walk path).

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Aug 10, 2003 9:05 pm

I personally wouldn't drill for returns, only for the drains.